Swell de Spirits, a newcomer in the world of independent bottlers, has hit hard in the small rum sphere, with a very beautiful Hampden unfortunately already sold out for a long time. Its bottlings of Armagnac and Cognac have also been noticed, thanks in particular to a neat design and sharp selections. We spoke with Michael Barbaria, the founder, a passionate man who took us to discover his profession:
Hi Michael, thanks for being with us, and nice to meet you virtually, before maybe seeing you at trade shows in 2022?
I would like to, because in the end I know more people outside of France than at home! I was an expat for the last 12 years. I went to Australia for 6 years, interspersed with stays in Asia, 5 years in Germany. My wife is Scottish, and we have traveled quite a bit.
Are you 100% into spirits today? What were you doing before?
Yes, I have been 100% there since April 2021. I arrived through the back door, initially I was passionate, and I got my foot in the door last year.
Swell de Spirits is a project that didn't happen overnight. I started working on it a few years ago. Basically, I'm an aeronautical engineer, I worked at Airbus in Toulouse as a subcontractor. After three or four years, I got fed up, and I left with my backpack, destination Australia. Coming from a small village at the foot of the Pyrenees, in Ariège, I said to myself why not something different: the beach, surfing, sailing, drinking beers, having barbecues...
He who can do more can do less, I entered the mining industry there, and then to touch on everything, I went into commerce, construction, public works, to return to Germany and then to France. Then I shortened my contract and I threw myself 100% into the passion to try to live from it.
Was it when you returned to Germany and France that this passion for spirits came to you, or was it always there?
It has always been more or less present, with my family and my mother's Italian side: grappa, the sense of tasting things (with a sugar cube when I was little!). And then I have always been attracted by the process side, the distillation of spirits, scotch whisky. Rum came later, the passion really came from scotch whisky, some old Macallan etc.
I imagine you must have visited the in-laws regularly!
In fact, you could say that I had everything I needed to start independent bottling!
So your first purchases for Swell de Spirits were scotch whiskies…
Yes, I bought a few barrels little by little. I was interested in going to see on site, and each time I had the opportunity, when we went to see the family 4 or 5 times a year, I spent a lot of time in the distilleries. There were quite a few opportunities to buy barrels directly from them.
That was a few years ago already, because now it's very hard. Unless you have a million euros to knock on the doors of distilleries and claim to buy a lot of barrels, it's getting harder and harder. It's a closed circle, you have to know a lot of people. There's a lot of trading, there's dealing between independents, distilleries, etc. There are even distilleries that buy from independents. Big stables like Gordon & MacPhail sometimes even have more stock than some distilleries.
I am passionate about Islay, Springbank, Lowlands too, especially Daftmill, with Francis Cuthbert who my brother-in-law knows well. I was also able to meet the Thompson brothers ( Dornoch Distillery, editor's note ). There is a lot of potential but you have to be there.
“This year there will be a lot of Scotch releases, because the casks are maturing.”
There are quite a few finishes, but also old Single Malt Scotch Whisky whose DNA I wanted to keep by leaving them in their initial casks, bourbon or hogshead.
So rum came later, I like big aromas, with Savanna who had released HERR barrels for example. I started with that in fact, with the "humid cellars" etc. On the Irish and English side, there is also something to do. In particular distilleries in Australia, which I had visited at the time. Then there are also agricultural rums, everything from Martinique, Guadeloupe or others, beautiful vintages to discover, and of course molasses. We are getting closer to the Armagnac side, old cognacs, some of which have a bit of resemblance to old rums.
I have no limits, so I said to myself "why not make other spirits?" I also started to take an interest in cognac, I spent time with the Pasquet family, I distilled the good chauffe with them and discovered the repasse charentaise.
So I had the opportunity to talk with producers and people close to the land, the vines, such as the Claverie family (Domaine de Baraillon Bas Armagnac) who I often visit and above all with whom I learn a lot on the subject.
In my vision of Swell de Spirits , I really want to take the time and do things well, to select well. I'm not chasing anything, you have to have fun first and foremost. The goal is to continue in the long term, in any case I'm doing everything for it. Touch wood, for now it's off to a good start.
"The goal of Swell de Spirits is to make beautiful vintages accessible, whether it's rum, scotch, cognac, armagnac, etc."
Even though I recently released cognacs with quite high prices, from the 60s, 50s, 20s, the goal is still for them to be accessible to a lot of budgets. But the prices are often aligned with the purchase price at which you get the barrel, and given the way things are going, it's not going into the green.
When did you buy your first barrels?
With my first contacts in distilleries, I had bought things like a Ben Nevis 2012. It was not a new spirit, because it was already in wood, but almost. I refined it afterwards, in an old oloroso cask from an old bodega. This kind of thing is harder and harder to find, so it is difficult to release something that is very accessible. It nevertheless came out at a fairly reasonable price.
There is also the concern of having a beautiful bottle with a nice graphic design. It is Bastien Renard, a rum enthusiast, who does the design for me. I met him on social networks, we talked for months, and from the beginning he told me "if there is anything I can do in terms of graphic design, don't hesitate, I'm up for it". Old-timers often say that if the label is well done, the liquid does not follow, but for the moment I hope to be able to do both!
In any case, the aim of Swell de Spirits is not to worry, to take the wave.
Exactly, “swell” is a surfing term, right?
Yes, the definition of Swell is “the swell”, the undulating movement of the ocean, of the sea. It is representative of the brand image that I wanted to give.
On quality, design, we always try to go for the detail, even if it means coming out months/years later. There is no rush, we are not stressed by time. We must not go into the red in terms of price, do not buy something that would not make sense. Everything is tasted, re-tasted, everything is refined. On rum , there are things that are being refined at the moment, small creations. There will be experimental series that will come out. Then I would like to reuse rum barrels for something else, and so on. I am also looking into working with demijohns, with cognac and armagnac.
On this subject the Hampden barrel should be interesting!
Exactly, in fact it is already full!
In any case, it's interesting to have access to this quality, and to meet the producers, the distillers. I don't do much in itself with Swell de Spirits, the biggest work was done upstream by the distillers, by the workers of the land, of the vineyard on the cognac and armagnac side for example. I'm going to try to put more and more emphasis on the story behind the product, through masterclasses, presentations, to share above all the story of the liquid, where it comes from, who are the people behind it etc.
I do the easiest thing, so you really have to stay humble. I don't like to say "I", because it's really "we", or even "them". I can't say that it's "my" traffic jam. There are terms that I have trouble using, and I focus more and more on paying homage to these people.
This is in line with Luca Gargano's idea of the "dependent bottler"...
Yes, even if for him it's something else, because he's very involved, he does a lot of work with the distillers, like with Richard Seale for example.
Speaking of Richard Seale, isn't there a Foursquare coming out?
Oui, un joli Foursquare qui a tout ce qu’il faut pour plaire. Sur le même principe que pour les gens qui cherchaient un <H> et qui ont été servis, on est sur un beau Foursquare, un 2006 avec un vieillissement presque 100 % tropical.
Have you been able to meet some Caribbean producers?
No, unfortunately, it was planned, but it has been complicated lately. But let's hope that it will settle down, there are a lot of trips to do, especially Martinique and Guadeloupe for the agricultural rum .
There will be work to be done, because these distilleries are not easy to convince!
Yes, the first contacts were not always easy, I quickly understood with some distilleries that it would not be possible. But it is understandable, they want to keep their treasures. Others are a little more open, so we are discussing, there are projects.
To return to mainland spirits, can you tell us again about the Calvados that you bottled?
This is an AOC Calvados from the Garnier distillery , a family distillery, from father to son. We are really on a small production, 100% apple, which produces about fifteen barrels per year. They mainly practice blending, and do not produce single casks. There are 3 cellars which are very interesting, including a dry cellar, facing south, and a more humid one, facing north.
For distillation, they use a continuous column from the 1920s-1930s, a bit like in Armagnac, heated by gas. For the AOC Pays d'Auge on the other hand, distillation must be done in a still.
What you need to know is that to make old calvados, you have to distil a cider that has aged in a vat for a year. So what was distilled this year, in the middle of the season, at the end of December – beginning of January, is a cider that has remained in the vat and has already formed a layer on the surface. It comes out at around 65-70% of the column, and it can be put in new barrels for a year, to load it with tannins. Then it is passed into old barrels.
“The one I chose is a barrel that comes from the humid cellar.”
This winery is very round and gives pastry notes. In winter, there are a few centimeters of water at the foot of the barrels, and there is a smell of mushrooms. There were a few barrels that were quite extreme, but this 18 year old is very well made.
To tell you the truth, I arrived there without knowing much. I knew the Normandy hole, but I had never really gone into it. I had tasted some good single casks from Drouin or Breuil, but selecting a cask seemed complicated to me.
“And then after all, with seeing the orchards, picking apples, discovering all their varieties (more than 200!), seeing the distillation, I said to myself why not!”
What is also interesting to see is a kind of canal, with apples carried by the water. Some distilleries play with the current, and the apples rise on a belt where they are sorted. Then they go directly into the press. Everything is really artisanal, the terroir is very beautiful.
We find the philosophy that Luca Gargano had developed in the past, that is to say developing a range with single casks, limited editions, working with the barrels, seeing what can be improved in terms of distillation, etc.
We talked a lot with Nicolas Garnier, he is open to experimentation. For the moment, the range is composed of the Fine, the 6 year old, the 12 year old and the 20 year old, and everything is assembled. But he may want to release unique barrels later, etc.
I realized during the holidays that there was demand. Having a bottle of Calvados on the table at that time is rather nice! I didn't see that coming, I sold all that bottling in a week, and I had a lot of good feedback afterwards.
It is also an opportunity to dust off the image of Calvados...
Yes, that's why we wanted to release something funky, with a design that's out of the ordinary for Calvados. It attracted a few glances. Beyond that, from a marketing point of view, I have no budget, and I won't have one by tomorrow. For the moment I'm making do with what I have, with social networks. The spirits fair in Toulouse (Open Spirits) also played a big role.
This is something I will develop with Swell de Spirits, to try to spend time with the distilleries to release nice single casks. When you see some Savanna or others, who do refinements in calvados barrels, or Jura in whisky, there are quite a few things to do with apple brandy. There are possibilities to take it out of the AOC, and why not do aging in rum barrels, whisky, etc.
Does aging have to be done on site in the AOC Calvados?
Yes, and then it's like in Armagnac and Cognac, it's not the world of rum or whisky. As soon as you get out of the typical French oak barrel, you get out of the AOC.
You also went to meet Guilhem Grosperrin for your cognac bottlings…
What a gentleman, what a man. There are people like that who influence the industry, and he is one of them. He is young and he already has a lot of knowledge, a great approach from the point of view of refining. I advise you to go and see his cellars, he will show you around and explain his work from A to Z on a daily basis. It is worth the detour. The fact of having had the opportunity to acquire two of his "precious" is a stroke of luck.
So we have a 65 Borderies , a rare vintage. The Borderies, Fins Bois and Bons Bois of 10 years of age, we hardly find any more. There are 5 to 10 times less than Grande Champagne or Petite Champagne. Quite simply because the surface area is smaller, so there is much less distillation.
We also have a 52-22 Fin Bois which, like the 65, is not vintage. It is very complicated to be able to vintage in cognac, in terms of paperwork, monitoring the barrel. You always have to have someone come to check and apply the wax, even if you simply have to sample or take out just one centiliter. These are a lot of additional costs, and that is why vintages are often much more expensive. We cannot demand that from small producers, it is too complicated for them.
To return to the 65 Borderies, we are on the heights, on a special cellar, where the famous 64 Borderies came from that Guilhem had released at the time and which had caused a sensation. It was the last barrel of 65, of which I was lucky to have the last drops.
“In the heights of the Borderies, we are truly on the most beautiful terroirs, the most beautiful vines, where we produce beautiful distillates.”
We have a fairly high degree and power in the mouth, because it must have been put in a fairly high barrel, and it must have aged in a fairly dry cellar. We have beautiful sensations in the mouth, with a lot of cinnamon, spices, caramel, a lot of length, some flowers, lots of things to enjoy.
For the 52-22, it's history in a glass. It's a blend of the 1952 (80%) and 1922 (20%) years in Fin Bois, with several barrels from the same producer. It's the 1922 that brings the freshness, the blackcurrant flower, while the 1952 is more robust, it has more power, it's surprising, because you might think it's the other way around. Once again, the Fins Bois vintages are rare, just like the Bois Ordinaires, the Oléron...
The story of this 52-22 is that a small producer had a request from a big house (about which 2pac made a song…). This big stable had asked this small local producer to make a blend for him, with specifications to meet, which was restrictive for him in the past. He started, in the early 2000s, with old barrels that he thought would do the job. After working on it, he arrived at this result, the big house was happy, but it finally decided to leave him alone. The whole region, including Guilhem's father, heard about this story, and he wanted to taste this famous blend. He was delighted and decided to buy everything. To immortalize this blend and its aromas, he put everything in demijohns.
I chose one of these 20 liter demijohns for Swell de Spirits, which yielded 40 bottles.
Are there any other things coming soon?
The Foursquare is coming this month, it will be bottled in Scotland very soon ( interview conducted on January 13 , 2022, editor's note ). That's where I bottle the Scotch Whisky so as not to lose the appellation. I go there every 2-3 months.
A Highland Park will also be bottled very quickly. It is a "Secret Orkney" in a 50-litre Octave cask. There will be a little less than 80 bottles. It is a Palo Cortado finish, a fairly rare sherry whose casks are not common, and in Octave even less. It is quite funky.
In Germany, I went to a lot of fairs like Limburg, which is great, with special releases of single cask whiskies. I also went to Frankfurt, Munich, and tasted quite a few things. I came across a Signatory Vintage from 1990, aged 100% Palo Cortado, which was magnificent.
“It was definitely something that stood out, and I thought if I ever did something in Scotch, I would do a young Palo Cortado thing.”
It's young, 2017, but it's surprising, it drinks very well. There are saline notes, softer peat, different from that of Islay, more vegetal and smoky. With the Palo Cortado, we don't quite find the DNA of Highland Park, that's for sure, even if there are a few markers. We are on a "sherry bomb", but which is not PX, which will not denaturalize everything. For the Glen Allachie or the Glendronach like Billy Walker did, people want color, concentration, and the PX carries everything in its path.
This will be a bottling for which there will be two schools. It will please or it will not please. You will have the old school who will say that it is too young and who will not be a fan of the Octave cask. And then there will be those who will like the fact of moving away from the traditional sherry cask.
It's also this kind of thing that gives you a range of personal selections, and that's what you expect from an independent bottler...
Indeed, I don't have too many limits with Swell de Spirits. And then it's a selfish job, I don't try to please a certain category, certain palates. I like it, and I did it.
I had sent a sample to Serge Valentin, who told me it was "spectacular". He gave me nice feedback, but he still told me "avoid sending me things like that in the future" (laughs).
Do you plan to do any assemblies in the future ?
It's already underway. The goal is to refine, to blend, especially in Scotch whisky. Of course it will no longer be single malt but blended, but we will remain in this universe.
The ultimate goal is to open a micro-distillery. I have a great passion for Japanese whisky. In the past, it was easier to get Chichibu , Hanyu, Yamazaki, Hibiki, things that I really like. I have looked at the processes a lot, I would like to spend time in Japan and work on distillation methods, fermentation, mizunara etc. The raw materials, the water, the altitude, a lot of things come into play.
The goal would be to create a small distillery to do funky things, to have fun, by applying the methods of the old days of Islay scotch whisky, while integrating Japanese methods, mizunara, to make a kind of melting pot.
It's something that we see in the long term, it's still a dream, but I hope it can be done.
"There's some old rum coming this year, Jamaican, Guyanese , and also some old Scotch whisky."
It should be out in 2022, with other surprises that are off the beaten track. There are already people who do this kind of thing, like Guillaume Ferroni and his Cape Verde grogues, or Anthony from Old Brothers (a real enthusiast and friend) who is also into it and who does beautiful things.
Topics like mezcal also interest me. I want to come up with surprises with Swell de Spirits, even if it means making mistakes and learning. Again, I don't set myself any limits.
Thank you Michael for this discovery of your brand and your profession, we look forward to the next traffic jams!
Thank you for doing this, because it allows us to know the person behind the project a little better. There is also the family that supports me, which is important. Kelly, my wife, is also mentioned, because she supports me a lot. She also has a palate that is quite nice, she feels things well and she always has her say on what we do. In a project like this, we take the family. My parents are always there and a precious help. My brother Yvan helps me a lot and develops the website. It is a family project, for which we try to climb the ladder little by little.
I work with Bastien Renard ( on the graphics, editor's note ), who is 300% involved and who has become a real friend.
There is also another person, an English woman called Fiona Shoop. She is in scotch whisky and gin , and she is in charge of the radio "Cocktail Hours". Thanks to her, I have an external eye on the tastings. I send her samples, and then for 2-3 hours we taste, we exchange. We make the tasting notes, as well as the representative phrase of the liquid, which is on the bottle.
