Foursquare: interview with Richard Seale

The recent activity of the Foursquare distillery and its director Richard Seale on social networks made us want to ask the main person concerned about what drives him at the moment. A new pot-still, vacuum distillation, high ester, pure cane juice, new products to be released, and all the questions we always wanted to ask him… Richard kindly agreed to take part in this long interview, with his characteristic taste for didactics. Many thanks to him!

I saw that you put a brand new pot still into service, and experimented with vacuum distillation. Is this still specifically designed for vacuum distillation, or does it also work like a traditional pot still, for atmospheric distillation?

Yes, it also works in atmospheric distillation. That is the advantage with batch distillation; it is always more flexible than continuous distillation. Our distillation column works only under vacuum, it was designed to work in a very specific way. We would not want to run it atmospherically, it would not make sense.

There are several vacuum columns in the world, but ours is probably the only one that works on the simple analysis/rectification principle that Coffey created. Similarly, our pot still is the only double-twisted still suitable for vacuum distillation . Other existing vacuum pot stills are of recent manufacture – often in stainless steel – not the traditional design, copper, vacuum-adapted stills like ours.

What are the advantages of vacuum distillation?

In batch distillation, you have a lot of control over the selection of the distillate, the heating core, and things like the distillation speed. You could think of sous-vide as adding the option of choosing your distillation temperature. The cane wine inside our sous-vide still will be boiling at 80°C for example. Whether in a column or a traditional still, a lower temperature offers the advantage of avoiding the aromas of overheating for many of the compounds in cane wine. It is also much more efficient in terms of energy expenditure.

Does this new pot-still also follow a need to produce much more?

Yes, today we need to produce more rum in order to meet the demand that is expected in the future. And a large part of this demand is now going towards the high end, where the pot-still part is essential.

How do you first use a pot still? How long does it take to get used to it?

There were three phases for the start-up:

First, calibrate and test all the instruments. This part is really crucial for a vacuum still, because precisely the vacuum part requires computerized instruments and control.

The second step is to distill water. This allows you to check and correct any leaks, and more generally to test the configuration.

Then we do some vacuum tests, and finally we distill a batch of vacuum cane wine. This is longer than it seems, because we keep making changes and fixing things. For example, tonight we changed the wiring of the vacuum pump because we were having trouble adjusting the motor speed, and we found a fault in the electrical connections.

What new features does this still offer?

It mainly offers three new features:

– Vacuum distillation

– Nano-copper

– A double heating system

We already had nano-copper on the existing pot still, but this was a modification of the original still. For the new still, we incorporated the nano-copper surfaces from the start of the construction.

Nanocopper allows for the design of a still with the exact thermodynamic shape that one desires, and also provides a greater catalytic effect for the same surface area. Simply put, our 6 trays normally function as 6 trays from a distillation point of view, but their catalytic effect acts as if we had 36 trays. Of course, if we installed 36 trays in the still, it would change its use completely, and in a way that we certainly do not want.

The dual heating system consists of steam coils and a water bath ("steam-jacket"). This allows for the most precise control over the distillation.

Do you have a system of "marks"? For example, standard pot/column assembly proportions, different concentrations of distillates...

Being a relatively new distillery, you may not have this history of brands aimed at brokers, but rather for your own operation?

The history of the brands is quite interesting, originally each distillery had its own unique brand. But as they closed down, their recipes were transferred to other distilleries, so that this “mark” could still be able to be supplied. As you know, in the Demerara region, all the stills and recipes were transferred so that the brands could still be produced even if the original distillery had closed down. But this has effectively changed the culture of rum, so much so that today it is normal for even a new distillery to produce a variety of different rums.

Pot still and column rums can be considered our two original brands. Today, since we use molasses, cane juice, different fermentation techniques, and of course different casks, we produce a range of "marks" that go into blends.

Rum has enjoyed some success in recent years, is your stock of aged rums able to meet demand?

Today we produce more rum than we did 5 years ago. And 5 years ago, we made more rum than we did 10 years ago. As demand increases, we invest more. As I always explain, we didn't sit down one day and decide to release Redoutable. First there was the success of Doorly's XO , so we invested to produce Doorly's 12. Then we invested again to make Doorly's 14. The new pot-still is there precisely to satisfy future demand.

You will also notice that we are very careful with our Exceptional Casks Series and our Velier releases. We could sell more, but it is important to always keep stock.

How many barrels do you have in your cellars at present? And which are the oldest?

We have about 45,000 of them – a number that is constantly increasing. The oldest rum still in the cask is from 2004.

It seems like you have a lot of fun selecting new barrels, do you have a secret favourite wood type or provenance?

Not really; we are looking above all for the quality of the casks. That is why we choose ex-cognac for example, because as you know, the cognac people select excellent quality casks. It is for the same reason that I chose some ex-sauterne casks, which are among the best casks that exist. For the same reason, I would not choose a Scotch Whisky or tequila cask. This is because these casks would not be better than the ones I already have.

I started with ex-sherry casks, and it was very natural to move to ex-Madeira casks, as they have a stronger connection to Barbados . I also source ex-Syrah French oak casks. This is not because I particularly like Syrah, but because the casks come from one of the best winemakers in the world, who can afford to have the best quality casks.

This is also why "gadget" or "eccentric" barrels, outside of the classic names, do not interest me.

Do you ever use new American oak barrels, or do you always turn to ex-bourbon barrels?

A few years ago we bought some new barrels, but it's not something we'll ever do again. We prefer old bourbon barrels, which we also re-burn. To me, the result is superior to new barrels.

Some distilleries tend to “season” their new barrels with their own rum (I’m thinking of “ex-Neisson” or “ex-Providence” barrels), is this something that interests you?

Yes, that's what we did with our new barrels. We also do it with other barrels, but those are secrets that I don't want to share.

Why did you become interested in pure cane juice? Is it a question of survival in the future, with the predicted shortages of molasses?

Today, we think of rum as being made from either pure juice or molasses. This wasn’t always the case historically, as rum was made on sugar estates that used both raw materials. What really inspired me was the desire to blur that line again. I don’t want people to think of Foursquare as a molasses distillery or a pure cane juice distillery, but as a distillery that uses sugar cane.

I was very inspired by my visit to Hampden Distillery, where rum has been made unchanged for 250 years, using both juice and molasses. It’s not about copying their methods, but sharing that philosophy. Foursquare is also a historical sugar place, which in the past made rum using cane juice and molasses, so it seemed a natural fit to press cane again at Foursquare.

Of course, we also have in mind to expand our potential, and to protect our supply with cane juice. Today we have a little over 8 hectares of our own to plant cane, in addition to the canes from the Ashbury Plantation.

What have you done with the distillates from your first presses of 2018? Are they aging?

We have been working with cane juice since 2016. The first two years we sourced from St Nicholas Abbey. In 2018 and 2019 we used our own juice as well as St Nicholas’s. For 2020 and 2021 the cane came from Ashbury Plantation. Everything is maturing.

Do you use pure fresh juice or syrup?

We use fresh juice. We have used St Nicholas syrup in the past, but we prefer fresh juice as it complements better what we make in molasses.

Would you say that your pure juice rum will be a “Single Estate” rum in the future?

We wouldn't say that, because not all the cane comes from Foursquare, so that would be misleading. When we have our own cane, it's possible that we'll release a single estate rum, but that's not really the goal. I prefer to blend.

Your high ester rum to be released with Habitation Velier is a blend of molasses and pure juice. How did this idea come about?

Towards the end of the harvest, it is quite possible to make rums with very high esters, coming from cane wines with very high acidity. So I said why not!

Is it completely unaged?

Quite.

How did you conduct the fermentation of the cane juice, which I imagine is very different from what you are used to?

After 20 years of fermenting molasses, I thought I was an expert. It was when I started fermenting naturally with cane juice that I realized I didn't know anything.

It is often believed that you have to use at least dunder to obtain high ester rums, yet some like Worthy Park do not use these methods. Were you inspired by them?

Yes, that is indeed a misunderstanding. Stillages are part of rum making in the general sense. Historically, all rums were made using stillages. Even today, Hampden makes common clean rums ( the light rum category, editor's note ) using stillages, which play an important role in the natural fermentation of molasses. However, they are not a constituent of the high ester. We have actually developed our own method, which is different from either Worthy Park or Hampden.

So it's "simply" a good yeast, good control of time and temperature, for a secondary malolactic or bacterial fermentation?

Secret. Hint: S.Pombe is important.

( Schizosaccharomyces pombe is a particular yeast, a fission yeast which plays an important role in grand arôme rums, editor’s note)

Will you be using cane juice vinegar to acidify your fermentation?

No, we do not produce cane vinegar per se, but our cane wines have a high acidity.

So Barbados high ester rums are something that belongs to the present, and hopefully the future; but were they also present in the past?

Yes indeed. They were called "long fermentation type rum". They were probably not high esters exceeding 600 g/hlap, but certainly above 300.

Should we expect an evolution of the Foursquare style, if these rums enter into future blends?

That’s the challenge for us. We’re happy to push the boundaries, but it’s important that our rums are recognized as “Barbados rums,” as Foursquare rums. Anyone can do something different, it’s ultimately quite commonplace to do that. The real challenge is to evolve while maintaining the core of our philosophy and our style.

Our high ester is very different from, say, an ECS collection rum, but it's very smooth, very balanced. We like to make rums that are well-balanced, very smooth. I like to think you'll agree that this is the kind of high ester rum you'd expect from Foursquare. That's the important thing.

Did you put some of these rums in barrels?

This blend is unique, for the special release Habitation Velier, but yes, we used high ester for blends that are now in barrels.

How are the discussions going around the Geographical Indication of Barbados Rum?

Ferrand stopped everything.

Can you tell us about the new releases for Europe, and in particular for France?

Indelible was sent last year, so it should be here already. The next release is Sovereignty. It's a cask strength, 14 year old, a blend of rums from ex-bourbon and ex-sherry casks. It's going out soon, so I think it'll be available around March.

You have commented on the work of Stephen Shellenberger ( Boston Apothecary ), acknowledging while qualifying the role of S.Pombe, but what do you think of "rum oils"? Is this something that enters into your conception of rum?

It’s not entirely clear what Arroyo was referring to. It’s thought to be terpenes ( molecules that make up aromatic oils, editor’s note ), but it’s probably more complex than that. Spirits all share esters, higher alcohols, and fusel oils, yet they all have different aromas. You can tell a sugarcane distillate from a grain distillate. It’s this defining element that can be summed up as rum oil.

It is not as simple as reducing it to a compound or even a family of compounds; it is a combination that produces that characteristic identity that defines a rum. The science of aromas is very complex, compounds can have very different aromas depending on whether they are mixed with another or taken separately. It may never be possible to define what rum oil is, but only to know when it is present.

The first Barbados Rum Experience ( a week of tours and seminars around the distilleries of Barbados, editor's note ) was a success that all enthusiasts would have dreamed of participating in. What can we expect from the next edition?

This event was indeed a great success. Hopefully covid is gone and doesn't restrict attendance next year. We had some great testimonials, and the attendees got to enjoy more than just a typical distillery tour. They learned not only about Barbados, but also the history and culture of Barbados rum.

Have you noticed a development in spirit tourism in Barbados? Is this something you would like to develop as well, by improving the Foursquare distillery tour, etc?

Yes, it is something that we are seeing more and more. I have had many visitors who have told me that they chose Barbados for their holiday because they wanted to visit Foursquare. We take that into account, but the Foursquare tour is already very comprehensive. You can visit the distillery up close, with access to all its parts. It is not an artificial tour. So the challenge for us is to improve this experience, but above all to maintain its authenticity.

Do you have any plans to expand your “classic” brands, such as cask strength, or is that kind of thing reserved for the Exceptional Cask Series? I could imagine a Doorly’s XO or a RL Seale’s 10 year old cask strength in my cellar!

It's unlikely.

Too bad, I would have tried! :D

 

Thank you Richard for taking the time to answer our many questions, and for never hesitating to open the doors of your distillery, whether for us, virtual visitors, or for the lucky ones who were able to discover it in real life. See you soon for the new ECS!